Jeff Davis (00:06): Welcome to the International Bar Association, the IBA Professional Wellbeing Commission podcast. This is a podcast that is focusing in on mental health in the legal profession. I am joined here by a colleague, Antoinette Moriarty, but before I introduce her, let me explain how we know each other. So, the IBA in 2019 kicked off a task force to study mental health in the legal profession, globally, and it ended up with a paper that was produced, published in 2021, with findings around the legal profession and particular issues around mental health in the legal profession.

After that, the Mental Health Wellbeing Commission was created from the IBA, and Antoinette and I are both commissioners on that. We've been working together for the last couple of years on that commission, and we decided our contribution was to try to create a podcast to focus in on mental health in the legal profession. So, Antoinette herself is a psychotherapist and group analyst.

She's the head of the Law Society of Ireland's Psychological Services, who are, in my opinion, by far and away advanced in the area of mental health and thinking about it in the legal profession. Antoinette is a member of the IBA Professional Wellbeing Commission, which I stated and has spent over 20 years applying clinical knowledge to enhance lawyers’ performance and optimized culture in legal workplaces.

My name is Jeff Davis. I'm the chief legal officer at Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan, and I am here with Antoinette to walk through our first session, which discusses the mindset of a lawyer. So with that, I'll get into the actual session. Today, we're going to be talking about the pressures and expectations in the legal profession and their impact on mental health.

So maybe, Antoinette, I'll kick it over to you to introduce one of our first topics about lawyers and the commonality of issues that lawyers may have. Why don't I leave it with you, Antoinette?

Antoinette Moriarty (01:55): Thank you so much. And it's a lovely opportunity, isn't it, to take the work of the commission out into the wider audience and into the wider legal community as we're doing through this podcast today, and many of you who are listening to us would begin to recognize, I think, as Jeff and I begin this topic, which is: Why is it do you think that lawyers have more in common with each other across all nationalities very often than they have with non-lawyers of their own country?

And it's a great opening question, and it's one that I've had the opportunity and the privilege, I suppose, of seeing up close at the International Bar Association's annual event. This year it's going to be in Mexico. Last year we gathered in Paris. The year before that it was in Miami. And I have had the opportunity, I suppose, of going in as a psychotherapist and looking up close range at just how alive those common traits become, particularly when large groups of lawyers come together.

And so, we're going to, over the next couple of minutes, Jeff and I, we're going to have a think about how that is the case. Jeff is going to give some examples from his own professional practice and his personal stance around this. And I'm going to apply some, I suppose, observations from the world of psychology. So, we have narrowed down a number of essential traits which we see across groups of lawyers, irrespective of their national starting point.

And some of those include, and those of you who are listening from home, whether you're driving, running, listening to this in your car as you travel, can disagree loudly with what we're about to report, which is perhaps one of the first traits we see in common, across lawyers, which is the capacity to take information and immediately go to the bit that isn't working well for you.

Of course, it's a phenomenal skill on behalf of your client, isn't that right? That's exactly why they've engaged you. Go right into that data, tear it apart and put it back together in a way that that's, more suitable. The downside of that is that when you're meant to be enjoying life, enjoying something socially, enjoying some part of your life like entertainment, a podcast, a video, a movie, you might also find it hard to turn that very kind of attuned sense of the problem off.

So, what we're talking about there is that heightened scale of being able to identify a problem and to deconstruct that problem skillfully. So, when it tips into personal life, I think this is where we can see a real challenge for people at a wellbeing level. The other aspect that goes alongside that, of course, is it can enhance that perfectionistic muscle.

Now, you might say lots of people are perfectionists, lots of professionals are perfectionists. And I think that's true. it is possibly one of the elements that distinguishes professionals from non in many ways, is that we are almost to a person trained towards getting everything really right, really well. But lawyers in particular, because of the high regulation, because of the high stakes, whether that's in terms of fees in the more corporate setting or whether it's in terms of people's lives in the, you know, in the charitable sectors or in the nonprofit elements of law.

Either way, you're dealing with really high stakes, and that is only going to enhance that sense of perfectionism. The next piece that we can come to is pessimism. And I'll be popping these back to Jeff in a moment to see do they land with you, Jeff, or are they things that you can speak to from personal experience?

But I think one element that I have seen come to life in meetings between lawyers and non-lawyers is that non-lawyers can be more drawn to the pessimistic perspective than the optimistic perspective. Of course, you're always working towards realism in the middle. Both pessimists and optimists want to arrive at that place of, you know, this is really what we're talking about.

But I think you're starting preference might be pessimism. And the last one I'm going to put out for this part of the pod is the trait of competitiveness. By no means is this confined to lawyers, but I think the structure and the hierarchical nature and the remunerative kind of system that's at play, it serves to enhance that competitiveness, making it really hard, I think, for lawyers to kind of work collaboratively.

And in many ways entrenching this idea that you're working with enemies rather than with collaborators. So, that's a lot of kind of hot and heavy trait material to put out in the first couple of moments. Let's take it apart a little bit, Jeff.

Jeff Davis (06:32): Sure. I'd like to thank you, Antoinette. And as you said, those different words, there was actually on some of them, a little part of me that I was going, “ugh!” Like you're kind of digging into parts of me that, you know, I have to manage or have had to manage or learn to manage over the course of my career.

The first one, I mean, that you identified about the problem solving and looking for problems, I think that's something that almost I’ve learned to obsessively do, and in fact, would say it bled into my personal life because it almost felt like things were boring if they were just kind of running smoothly. And so, you wanted to find things to what you're going to do, and make some excitement about your day.

And you did that at work all day, but also on the weekends, or whatever, you want to make sure that you know you're thinking about what you're experiencing and how can you change it or improve it, rather than simply be present with it. And it took me a lot of work to kind of get to a place where I could, and still takes me work to get to a place where I'm just present in the situation, rather than thinking about what can I do with that situation?

How can I change it? What are some things that could be different than they are right now? I definitely say that that's part of my active mindset. So that resonates.

Antoinette Moriarty (07:41): There's a kind of a low humming motor that's continuously at play, unless you bring yourself right in to a mindful presence.

Jeff Davis (07:50): Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And literally I've had to do work to kind of figure out how to bring myself into that mindful presence. Some kind of work that I thought, you know, I would have said, there's no way I'm doing that kind of thing. But it turns out, some of it works. I'd say another thing that you said is perfectionism.

That is probably the piece that resonates the most. That's the part that kind of sticks into my gut and pit of my stomach. I say I learned that early on in my career.

Antoinette Moriarty (08:19): Tell me a little bit about how you learned it actually in your career? So there’s something a junior lawyer can, can kind of be—

Jeff Davis (08:26): Yeah, sure. So, I’d say that I had a pretty good experience at law school. I went there from being an English Lit grad, and I went to school and kind of figured out how to think and do well there and then I did well in school. And then I went to a law firm and the first year of the law firm it was hard because I thought I was great at everything.

And it turns out I wasn't great at everything. I was learning things, and the things that I was learning, were also things that were wrong. So, mistakes that I was making. And I learned in that environment whether or not it was from direction or from experience, that that was bad, like making mistakes.

That was not what you were supposed to do. If you were to write a memo or if you were to write a document, you wanted it to come back clean, and if it came back with red pen on it, that mean you failed. And I would agonize over that.

Antoinette Moriarty (09:16): Your heart?

Jeff Davis (09:16): Yeah.

Antoinette Moriarty (09:18): Yeah. And it's really interesting because what you're describing, really, Jeff, I think is that visceral response that we can have, you know, it goes right into our—it moves kind of from our brain right down into the body, you know, and I'm thinking of the impact of that on wellbeing over a period of time, over a long period of time.

So, from early law school right up to the stage of career you're at, for example, that's a lot of moments of, “oh, that hurts” and “oh, that's a mistake,” “oh, that's bad”, you know, I'm just thinking of the kind record that's playing maybe in the background of your professional life.

Jeff Davis (09:54): It was hard. I think that, I really mean it when I say that I would agonize over, you know, whether or not it should be a different word, whether or not that pen stroke that some partner put on the document, whether or not I was right or they were right, and knowing somewhere deep in my heart that that was an improvement.

That's the way I would look at it now. But at the time, it really kind of dug into me. And I felt like after coming off a period of very high achievement through school, this was not... I wasn't great. I wasn't really that good at all, in fact. That's how it felt.

Antoinette Moriarty (10:28): It just sound so painful. And I, you know, I work a lot with young lawyers at their formative stage in law school. We, at the Law Society of Ireland have a module called “The Complete Lawyer”. And it's all about the psychological elements of practice. And that is so familiar to me from workshops with that particular cohort, you know, the learning, they come in and they are in the top one percentile nationally and they come into law school and, you know, one of the first things we say to them, which is, you know, a kind of a humourous kind of introduction to what we're going to be doing with them is to look around and to, you know, really take in the idea that everybody across the row and the row behind them and the row in front of them and all the rows contain people who've been told that they are the best.

Jeff Davis (11:16): Yeah.

Antoinette Moriarty (11:17): And what is it going to be like now that there are no other students to compare with, that it's all of the best lined up alongside each other, front to back, left and right.

Jeff Davis (11:27): I think you're right. And I think there was this inner desire at that time, at that young period of my career, I really wanted to be the smartest and the smartest in the room. And if I wasn't the smartest, then, you know, then I was a failure. I learned later on from, other leaders. In fact, we're going to have one on the next podcast that, and one thing she would say is that if you feel like you're the smartest in the room, then just go to another room, like you're there's smarter people everywhere in the world.

There always are. And she would say that all the time. By that time, I got past some of these issues. But I’d certainly say that at the beginning of my career, and the first part of it, these were big challenges for me. And to say that they're completely gone from my body, I'm not sure I can say that.

I'd say somewhere within me, there's still that part that wants to be perfect, wants to be right. Maybe I've just gotten a little better, a little older. I don't know what it is. My life has gotten imperfect in many ways, so I've accepted that there's no way to be a perfect version of myself.

Antoinette Moriarty (12:30): That helps. But there's so much material in what you're bringing, Jeff, and just to stay with it maybe for a moment, that idea that, you know, it doesn't leave us. I think that is so helpful for people listening to us today that it's not about eliminating these traits, or these leanings, or reducing the strength of these muscle groups that we we’re trained to develop.

It's actually about adjusting the lens so that you see the other rooms that, you know, that your colleague was so insightfully pointing towards that you can actually look up and look around you and see that there's a pool of brilliance all around lawyers actually.

Jeff Davis (13:08): Yeah.

Antoinette Moriarty (13:08): But we're also all operating within a wider social network. And we have a lot to learn, don't we? From, you know, encountering people who are different professionally, personally, who have different skill sets, who, yeah, are bringing us their mess to clean up and put a bow on and hand it back, that there's an enrichment of our own lives. I think maybe as something that might come with that understanding.

Jeff Davis (13:35): I think you're right. I mean, you know, as I got older in my career, I found that the areas that might be the places where I would maybe make mistakes or do things differently than what was the norm might be actually worthy of really exploring because they might actually be special and innovative and be the areas that, you know, I could bring something different than other people could. Those might be somehow connected to the errors I was making.

Antoinette Moriarty (14:03): I love that, actually. And I think that's exactly what we're trying to offer through our series, isn't it? This kind of humanizing, of what you might have been taught or what you might have even been told very directly are problems that they're actually the way into, becoming better. But I'm thinking as well about the role that confidence plays in being able to accept those shadowy parts of ourselves.

And I guess you over the period, because you are now chief legal officer of a very, you know, impactful and influential organization, with responsibility for a lot of people, and I'm thinking of how your confidence was fed and nourished over the course of the 20 years that you have spent with Teachers’, for example? And was that partly what has allowed you to have this more allowing kind of perspective on yourself?

Jeff Davis (14:57): Yeah, definitely. I mean, I can remember other leaders, mentors, bosses, whatever you want to call them over the course of my career that showed a different side of themselves. I had many of them who I would say would be perfectionists and other-oriented perfectionism and so really kind of imposed that world upon me. But I had many in my career—or some I’d say in my career that weren’t that way, that actually brought this idea that, you know, well, we all make mistakes and you learn from them and you kind of move on and, and more kind of a sophisticated version of leadership or maybe more honest version of leadership.

And so, I can go down a list of individuals that I’d name that really had that impact on me. And I think accepted, you know what? I might be flawed in some ways, but it doesn’t mean I’m not awesome and doesn’t mean I’m not good at what I do or excellent at what I’m doing, it’s just that I’m not perfect at everything.

I think I can remember to this day a moment when I was working on a transaction and thinking to myself how high stakes it was, and if I made a mistake, this could be a billions of dollars mistake. And thinking to myself, you know, my job is to do the best thing I possibly can. It’s impossible to eliminate to the degree that I might get something wrong in this. There could be an error.

Antoinette Moriarty (16:24): Yeah.

Jeff Davis (16:24): And that’s the way the world works, and that’s the way life works. And I think that, you know, it didn’t change how I approached work. It didn’t change my drive for excellence. But I think it did change—

Antoinette Moriarty (16:36): Ok, interesting.

Jeff Davis (16:36): —like this kind of mindset about myself and like, well, yeah, I do make mistakes and sometimes I discover them after, and that’s interesting, and then maybe learn from what I can take from that. I developed this concept for myself that there are no perfect versions, there’s only better versions. And so, whatever you do, can it be a possible improvement on the last thing, but that doesn’t mean you land at a place like: I’ve got it. It’s perfect now.

Antoinette Moriarty (17:00): Yeah. And that, I think, leads really beautifully into the next topic we're going to look at together, which is: What are the psychological impacts of all of these kind of conditions that you work within these really high demand environments with high stakes, lots of people looking over each other's shoulders to progress? Not a huge amount of let's do it together, more you've got to kind of eat what you can, in order to advance yourself.

What is the psychological and the emotional impact of being in an environment like that over a long period of time? And I think, one of the first things we can talk about maybe is the Global Mental Health and Wellbeing study, the International Bar Association has commissioned, and it had some pretty concerning results, didn't it, Jeff? Around the impact.

Jeff Davis (17:55): Yeah, it did. I mean, the things that resonate with me from that study and from what I've learned, like especially around concepts of perfectionism, which you could describe better than I could, Antoinette, given your profession like the relationship between that and anxiety disorders or eating disorders or things quite extreme, like suicide ideation, things like that, substance abuse, obsessive behaviors.

I think that they bear a relationship to this kind of inner voice that you're telling yourself you're not good enough, or you're not strong enough, or you're not paid enough, well enough, or whatever it is. I think that that's the impact of living with that type of mindset.

Antoinette Moriarty (18:38): Yeah. We're so familiar with it as commissioners. We're so familiar with the report and with the results. But even now, listening to you say that, it's still really impactful, isn't it? To kind of, you know, when you follow the thread from working hard and doing your job on behalf of your client and your firm or your organization or your department, wherever people are, that that in itself is the route into being quite seriously unwell at some part or portion of your life.

It's really hard, actually, I think. And it's hard for people, in my experience working with lawyers clinically, it's hard for lawyers themselves, I think, to make that connection very often. It's almost like it's denied. And I think it's almost like, I don't know how you feel about this, Jeff, but my experience working with lawyers individually is that they will almost blame themselves.

So, it's like a continuation of this individual perspective rather than the kind of more group perspective that you'd like to kind of encourage law firms to have. That it's an individualizing of periods of being unwell as well. So, it's, “This is my problem. I've caused this. I've stayed up too late, repeatedly. I've not asked for help. I've not been able to manage when everybody around me seems like they're managing.

And yet, the study showed us actually, you know, the wellbeing levels right across the board, which is the average wellbeing level globally, is of clinical concern. The average wellbeing level, not the exceptional.

Jeff Davis (20:11): Yeah. No, I think that, you know, I would say that when I was a younger lawyer, anxiety did fuel a lot of the work that I was doing, but the problem was that you wouldn't talk about it and the stresses that I’d go through, you know, you keep them internalized. You keep them to yourself.

I honestly think, like, show me a lawyer who hasn't struggled with anxiety, and I think that you've got a lawyer who's struggling with self-awareness. Like, I don't really think those things exist. I think in time you learn to manage those types of things. And I actually believe that, you know, I don't want to say that everybody who is a lawyer has an anxiety disorder or anything like that.

But I just think that you learn at an outset that the stresses around that sometimes almost you can feel like it's the fuel that is driving your work. It's actually some of the energy that you get to drive you to work at 4 a.m. or 5 a.m. to be looking through that document. You're drawing on a degree of anxiety that is kind of forcing you to do that.

Antoinette Moriarty (21:14): Yeah. Which of course is releasing, as we know now, with all that we know about our brains and how they work and the, you know, endocrine system and how, you know, that kind of fueling is actually fueling from adrenaline and cortisol, which go on to have both physiological and psychological impacts that we could never imagine. And you named some of those just now at the beginning of this part of the pod.

So, you know, I think we do need to think maybe about how to scaffold lawyers, right? Throughout their careers, and there may be different ways that people respond, you know, to scaffolding. But you mentioned, I think, one of the key ways of ensuring wellbeing, which is having good people around you who are there to guide you in a very particular way with a very particular understanding and a very particular sense of the role wellbeing plays in the workplace.

So, that coaching and mentoring culture, which is not common really within law firms, I think we could say that that's certainly one part of the scaffolding. You have also, I know, been really proactive with putting a scaffolding around yourself. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about that?

Jeff Davis (22:25): Sure, I think I know what you're talking about. So, I've spent a lot of time—I became very interested in mental health and the legal profession, and its relationship, both because of personal things and also what I've seen the colleagues go through leading, you know, teams of lawyers, seeing them go through challenges. I thought, you know, that's something that I would want to give to the much younger lawyer version of myself and also to the teams that I lead.

And what I see going on in the profession. And honestly, when I saw the report that was done at the IBA, it kind of really, kind of stuck in my stomach that I really want to do something about this. And I thought well, what do I do for myself? How do I address it myself? And through reading and experimenting and trying things differently, I was like, well, at my organization, when we decide we want to achieve something, we set goals for ourselves.

We do it every year. So, at the beginning of the year, I said 3 to 5 goals that are big, significant things that I want to achieve for the year. And then sometimes I'll even have a development plan, and that development plan will help me achieve those goals. So, it's like I need to kind of develop and understand this area of law, or I need to be able to kind of learn this kind of political environment.

And so, we set those and I decided to use something like that, but use it in this context to say, okay, I'm going to set goals for myself that are in the mental health and wellbeing perspective and actually take those goals, set them at the beginning of the year, describe what they are, have metrics like actually what I'm going to do about them and the book that I carry around, my bullet journal that I carry around, that is with me all the time, every day, that I carry in this bag.

I also have this piece, this document, this page, that's in here that talks about those types of things. And I actually love it because it's like it goes into different elements that I think that the beginning of the year, this will help me in the course of this next year, have a better year and a better experience in my job.

And it ranges on— Yeah, it ranges on like the things that are in here, like I talk about broad categories, some of these that, you know, some people will snicker at you probably won't, given your profession, but like self-care and compassion, it talks a little bit about, you know, physical activity, working out, how frequently, maybe set weight goals there, set nutrition goals in there.

I mean, one of the ones that falls into there is even, you know, gratitude and thinking, being very intentional about when you take time out to thank people and be grateful for things that are going on in your life or in your career. There's stuff in here about difficult feelings and pain, and taking time in your course of your career, weekly, to think about what is bothering me this week and how can I explore that and think about it?

Antoinette Moriarty (25:10): That's so brave. I'd love to know a little bit more about that piece, actually. I mean, they all sound like the building blocks for a really healthy lawyer, but that piece in particular, I think might resonate with those listening to it. Yeah.

Jeff Davis (25:21): Sure! So, under that category, I talk about it in three different dimensions. So, I'm a person, I'm an extrovert. I love being around other people. That is the fun times for me. I don't love being alone. My wife, total introvert. When she's alone, she loves being alone. But that's not me. So, one of the difficult feelings I've had in life is when I'm alone and so dealing with loneliness.

So, one of the elements that I think about, difficult feelings, is being alone, taking the time to actually spend time by myself, and being curious and thinking about how I will have fun times and enjoy, like kind of facing that challenge and enjoying life when I'm alone. Another one is seeking difficult feelings.

So, two times a week I spend time, I go and think, what are the difficult feelings? What are the things that I don't want to think about that are bothering me? Whether it's the email that came from someone at work that for some reason I'm still thinking about three days later and I'm really angry about it, take the time to think about that. And the third one is really on the difficult feelings, pains.

I call it learning study work. I think what this is getting at is self-awareness. So, actually taking the time out to kind of think about myself and why it is I have these difficult feelings, what they're about.

Antoinette Moriarty (26:38): So, you follow that thread it sounds like, it's not just about re-experiencing feelings for the sake of it. It's also to understand them so that you can support yourself differently.

Jeff Davis (26:47): Yeah. Maybe talk to my wife about it? Say, here's something that's been going on and something along those lines I guess, you know, the prior times in my life, if I was to talk to a therapist about it, like take that as giving [inaudible]. There's stuff in here too that are like, there's a section on redefining play and celebration and like how I'm going to have fun and what I'm going to do.

So, like once a month, it's something to do with music. Whether it's going to a live show, whether it's actually kind of experimenting and creating music. So, things like that, things that I think are going to help me.

Antoinette Moriarty (27:20): You create your own music?

Jeff Davis (27:23): Well, I can't say it's great music, but I try.

Antoinette Moriarty (27:26): I think that's a fantastic outlet, actually, for somebody who's, you know, brain has been trained to work in a very sort of, you know, a logical, incremental way to go right brain on that must be a real belief for you, actually.

Jeff Davis (27:40): I like experimenting and playing with music, for sure. Always have.

Antoinette Moriarty (27:44): Yeah, lovely! And people are listening to us and they're probably thinking of their equivalents and maybe not necessarily recognizing the role that plays in scaffolding their mental health and wellbeing and insulating against, you know, episodes or periods of their lives where things can really crash down for us. And of course, those, as we know, are very common. At least 1 in 4 people, listening to us will have a serious episode of, as you described earlier, a disorder, what could be categorized as a disorder.

We don't use that language, actually. Interestingly, in psychotherapy, they're all about experiences, you know?

Jeff Davis (28:19): Okay.

Antoinette Moriarty (28:19): So, and I only say that because I think there is something very freeing about thinking about these as kind of very ordinary human experiences, just like other transitional points in life, like, you know, becoming less flexible is a kind of function of aging.

You know, we accept that we don't try and kind of blame ourselves for it, but somehow if it's in the more psychological realm, we think of it as a disorder, it's actually just an evolution of how we are. We're kind of built for these experiences. I might move us on, actually—

Jeff Davis (28:50): Sure!

Antoinette Moriarty (28:50): —to our final section for this pod. And this is really looking at top tips to manage work demands. And we know that laws are almost to a person, excellent at meeting your client's needs and your professional demands, but your own can kind of slip down that, you know, not everybody has that beautiful gray bag with that level of thinking inside it.

But can we think about a couple of other ways that people can manage that kind of, you know, like competing deadlines, conflict at work? Maybe clients that are quite demanding that you need to please because that's what you're enrolled to do. Do you have some tips, Jeff, for people listening to us about how to bring all of this kind of awareness into the workplace in a practical way?

Jeff Davis (29:39): I mean, for me, I think, yeah, I think it's about planning. I mean, there's a few different pieces. So, let's unpack that. If you're talking about competing priorities for me, I need a system. And some type of system that has a structure. I use something called a bullet journal, which is just a “what are the things you're going to do that day?”

But then it goes to the week of the month, and I find it to be really effective. It's a great hack for someone like myself, you know, if someone asked me to do something rather than put it on my today list, it might be on my Thursday list, or it might be my two weeks from now list, so I can structure it out that way and then revisit that list, that book every day.

So, kind of spreading that over the course of the month so it somehow becomes realistic of what I'm trying to achieve. When you're talking about deadlines, and clients and those demands, I think one comment I would say is that in the competitive marketplace of law, I think sometimes law firms do this to themselves. Now, sometimes clients do that for sure.

And they say, I need this, and I need this by the end of the day. But often my experiences, I'll ask for something and they'll say, we'll get it to you by the end of the day, or we'll get it to you by 12:00. It's like, I don't need that. I don't need it for a week. But I think the nature is like, no, but we'll do it and we'll get it done there.

And so that's kind of putting unreasonable deadlines on themselves. And that creates a whole kind of challenge within an environment that I think doesn't necessarily need to be there and can be addressed through a conversation with the client. and I'm not sure that even if when you say as the client, “I really mean it, I don't need this this week.” I'm not sure that's heard.

Half of the time, they’ll come back that day or you'll get an email at 4 a.m. and there will be this document and you're just like, “Wow, they're doing this to themselves.” So, I think there's a little bit of that. I don't know if that addresses some of the comment you asked?

Antoinette Moriarty (31:30): I think that's a really interesting point, actually. And I think, there's something about that that seems to it's a systemic problem. It's a cultural problem of what's expected and what's projected into clients that's not particularly real at all. It's about the internal environment being created within the organization or department, or even within certain teams I think in law firms can have different ways of managing this.

So, really trying to catch that cultural piece and trying to look at what are the systems, that can support quite a healthy, and creative way out of that. And just being again, I'm thinking of the word from the earlier topic around being intentional, and not leaving that maybe to big law firms to figure out on their own, or for teams within organizations to figure out that there needs to be some leadership around that. And do you have any thoughts around the role that leadership plays in enhancing culture?

Jeff Davis (32:28): Yeah, for sure. I mean, if you I would say that around mental health and its relationship in the legal profession, and then how that plays with leadership is I think leaders need to be able to talk about this openly. The reason why I'm talking about this here is because of that. That goes to really the idea of destigmatization.

The biggest problem around—we talked about this a lot in the report, the findings around this—the stigma around mental health is huge, right? You where you somehow are being hired for your capabilities to think. And so, you don't want to betray this idea that your thinking process or your mind or there's something in there that doesn't work totally properly.

And so, that's a flaw so you don't want to betray that flaw to anybody. I think that leaders need to kind of be open about, “No we all have that stuff, and that's really normal.” And you don't need to ruminate that you're having a bad day and maybe your huge crisis or this pattern and story you're telling yourself isn't that. It might just be a bad day.

And I think leaders really need to be very open and honest about their own experiences so people that they're leading can identify with that. And frankly, my experience of that, when leaders are like that, they tend to inspire us. We don't get inspired by the perfect, all powerful, super wonderful lawyer. I don't like to hire lawyers who actually show up as being the super-polished “everything”.

I don't like that. I can't connect with people like that. People who are honest and open about who they are and their flaws, I think, are people I can connect with. And when you connect with people like that, you tend to trust them more. And that to me, I think is—

Antoinette Moriarty (34:08): And you work better, don't you?

Jeff Davis (32:09): For sure.

Antoinette Moriarty (34:10): That alliance that you've formed with people, that's based on real kind of conversations rather than infomercials, you know, that builds trust in their ability, and you probably get a much better output in those kind of teams, actually. So, you're actually counterintuitively creating more impactful teams.

Jeff Davis (34:31): Yeah, absolutely. I think another thing is, I mean, leaders should ensure that the type of support systems that law firms or incorporates are available to people, like whether it's kind of, you know, psychotherapy coverage with benefits, benefits that can support from a mental health perspective that are, you know, available. I think I'd be drawn as a young lawyer to an organization that does that. And I can tell you as a client, I am drawn to law firms that provide that to their lawyers and know that they're being very intentional about that.

Antoinette Moriarty (34:59): I think there's an awful lot in there that's actually really worthwhile for our listeners to consider. Those listeners who are hiring, who are in leadership roles, to really think about the added benefit of changing the lens, from, you know, there's a dysfunction or a disorder to there's really people in this place who want to do well who are really committed to the work, let's make it easier for them.

So, Jeff, I think we've had a really, good and thorough conversation over those couple of topics. I don't know if you in your legal prowess capacity would like to sum it up for us before we, also point forward maybe to the next session that we'll be hosting.

Jeff Davis (35:37): I guess I’ll try to sum it up by saying that the idea of having—being in a perfect mental health state at any point in life, I think is a bit of a falsehood. It is a high-pressure profession so naturally we're going to suffer at times physically, and we're going to suffer at times mentally. And giving yourself the ability to kind of think, well, what can I do about that?

That probably is a hack for confidence. There's a lot of things out there that you can do. I talked about some of the stuff that I did. We didn't even talk about therapy, but that's another one. And I think that just like we're so proud to tell people that “I went to the gym this morning and I lifted this much weight” or “I ran this far”, if we can get to a world where we're proud enough or not, at least want to hide the fact that we're taking care of our mental health the same way that we would our physical health. I think the profession would be a lot better.

Antoinette Moriarty (36:32): I really like that, actually, because I think that's right. And I think exercises almost become another kind of stick for people to beat themselves with. So, it's a really good cultural shift, though, isn't it, from something that was presented to something that's like a source of pride? What if we could do that with good and effective tools for managing both physical and mental health?

I think the workplace would be transformed. So, thank you so much for sharing so much of your own story. Actually, I think that's probably the most impactful part of any pod is to hear somebody in a leadership role speak so openly. Would you like to, on that note, provide our listeners with a sense of what the next session is going to address?

Jeff Davis (37:11): The next session we're going to be having an incredible guest. Her name is Melissa Kennedy. She's the chief legal officer of Sun Life Financial. And I have worked with Melissa Kennedy in my career. She was my boss, actually, from 2009 to 2014. She was one of the people that I referred to earlier in this podcast to help support me and provide actually an incredibly supportive environment, not just for me, for everybody in the legal department at Ontario Teachers’ and I think that she has her fingerprints on the culture of the organization and what it is today.

Antoinette Moriarty (37:42): So, we look forward to the next pod with Melissa, Jeff and myself. And thank you all for listening.

Jeff Davis (00:05): Welcome to the podcast series being done on behalf of the IBA Professional Wellbeing Commission. This is a podcast series that focuses on mental health in the legal profession. Today this is our second session, our second podcast, and we're focusing in on the highs and lows, pressures, and expectations in the legal profession. I have with me my partner in crime, Antoinette Moriarty, who is a psychotherapist and group analyst.

She's the head of the Law Society of Ireland’s Psychological Services. And I also have a very close colleague, a close friend, Melissa Kennedy. Melissa is the Chief Legal Officer of Sun Life. She's practiced for approximately 35 years, and at Sun Life, it's a company that's 1.4 trillion in assets under management. There’re 40,000 employees at this company.

Melissa manages a group of 500-600 individuals, of which about 250 are lawyers. They're located across 14 countries. So, welcome back, Antoinette, and welcome, Melissa, to the podcast. So, to kick off, I think one of the first things that we're going to get into is the concept of the nature of the legal profession. And what's really interesting, Melissa, about your role is that you manage both lawyers and non-lawyers.

And I think one question that both me and Antoinette would love to explore is: Do you find that it's different when you're dealing with a lawyer or a non-lawyer in terms of managing them?

Melissa Kennedy (01:29): Absolutely. So, I have managed, different kinds of groups. I've got lawyers, of course, in my group but I also have, you know, people who are economists, who are accountants, very different backgrounds to lawyers. And yet lawyers take up about 90% of my management time. They always have, no matter which companies I've been at. They just require a lot more time and attention.

Antoinette Moriarty (02:00): Tell us more! That is a fascinating statistic in itself, Melissa.

Melissa Kennedy (02:05): So, you know, I don't know if you coined it or I coined it, but we always say lawyers are quivering masses of insecurity needing constant attention and approval. And that’s true—

Jeff Davis (02:14): I think that's you! [laughs]

Melissa Kennedy (02:15): That's me? [laughs]

I'll tell you a story when I was at Teachers’. So, I was managing five different groups, one of which was communications and media. and the head of it was very good. And, you know, we all have in companies, employee surveys. And the employee survey came back. I didn't get very good marks from the communications team.

So, of course, I delved into it with the head of communications. She and I got along very well, and I gave her total access, the CEO and everyone, and said go back and see what's going on. And she came back and she said, “Oh, well, it's simple. You're not paying them any attention. Like you don't come out to their meetings.” Or, you know, whatever.

So I said, “They're 100% right. 100% right.” So, the first meeting I went to and I made it a point to start attending them regularly. I said, “Listen, you're right. Thanks for the feedback. You're right, I haven't been paying attention to you. But you have to understand that you're my straight-A student, president of the glee club, and I'm bailing your brother out of jail every weekend.

So, because the M&A lawyers that I had to deal with, and there were other kind of lawyers at Teachers’ at the time when I was there, you know, needed a lot of time and attention.

Jeff Davis (03:34): Now, just to be clear, I don't know if our listeners know this, Melissa, when she's saying the other lawyers, the M&A lawyers, one of the people that she's referring to is me, I think. Melissa started at Teachers’ in 2009. I was there, she was my boss, for five years from 2009 to 2014. So, when she's talking about some of the lawyers there, I think I'm one of them.

Melissa Kennedy (03:54): Yes, yes, yes you are. [laughs]

Jeff Davis (03:56): I needed 90% of your time—

Antoinette Moriarty (03:58): I'm having this fabulous image of all these good boys and good girls who kind of been, you know, brought up to have the best of manners, to be the most responsive to direction, to try and get their homework in on time. And it just spills over into law school, and from law school into organizational life.

And I suppose you've hit on one of the real disadvantages to being so well-behaved, which is that the, you know, we always talk about the squeaky wheel gets the most oil and the creaky door needs to be attended to, and yet, you know, you were not paying them attention because they were so problem-free. And yet their need for affirmation was higher than those around them. And I'm wondering if the two are connected. Not enough leads to a kind of an insatiable need for external evaluation.

Jeff Davis (04:48): But wait, I think what Melissa's saying, I just want to clarify, I think Melissa's saying that she was not spending time with the communications group because she was spending so much time with the legal groups because they needed all of her time. And so, at a certain point, the communications had said, “Hey, us over here, you don't show up.” And she's like, “I'm sorry. These other folks, they're taking up a lot of my time.”

Antoinette Moriarty (05:09): Okay, so I've completely misheard the story, which I think is kind of interesting because, you know, and there's no such thing as a mistake, I misheard it because I was thinking of lawyers as being so good.

Melissa Kennedy (05:21): Oh, no.

Antoinette Moriarty (05:24): No?! So tell me, wise me up, please about all these not well-behaved lawyers!

Melissa Kennedy (05:30): They need constant attention and approval. And, hey, listen, I'm one of them, and I have the same quivering masses of insecurity inside. And, you know, we've all developed coping techniques, which I think we're going to get into, but, no, lawyers need a lot of time and attention. They constantly rethink, retread decisions. They want guarantees if there's going to be any kind of decision making.

And as they get more senior, they have to become more and more comfortable with something that all of us were trained not to do, which is making decisions without full information.

Antoinette Moriarty (06:12): Ah, okay.

Melissa Kennedy (06:13): And the higher you go up in your career, the more you are making decisions in ambiguity, which is extremely uncomfortable for a lawyer. So, no, the lawyers weren't behaving badly. They just were being lawyers and needing more time and attention.

Jeff Davis (06:31): I mean, here, I'll chip in on this. I think one thing that could be underlined that has a little bit to do with the professional environment as well. There are some professional environments, if you take like a trader like at, you know, Sun Life or at Teachers’, they can know their answer if they got it right.

They can know by the end of the day what they did, did they get it right or not? Did the bet work out? But when you're in a world of kind of like where that is ambiguous, it's totally uncertain, you don't have that proof point. So, you're looking for reassurance. Am I right? Did what I do here, is that the right thing?

And I think that it might tend to, because of the ambiguity and the inability to prove what you're doing is being the right answer, might lead to a need for reassurance, more reassurance, and might also create that environment of insecurity. I'm just guessing, though.

Melissa Kennedy (07:22): I think that's right. I think, we're being asked to give advice in uncertainty.

Antoinette Moriarty (07:29): Yes.

Melissa Kennedy (07:30): And that is not comfortable. We are taught, from law school to early training, on looking at everything, identifying the risk and platinum-plating it to either advance the interests of the client or protect the client, sometimes both. And so, it's a very risk-adverse professional training. And, you know, what I find sometimes is with lawyers they take that training and internalize it.

And that's who they become. And so, when they're making uncertain decisions, it's extremely uncomfortable. And you're right, they need constant assurance. I can remember at Teachers’ one of your high-performing colleagues was in the midst of a massive deal, very complex. And she came to me like the day of closing and said, you know, “What do I do here?”

Because yet another uncertainty was thrown her way. And I said, “Listen, there's nothing I can help you with. You've been on this deal for months. You're the best person to make the decision, and you could lay out all the facts for the next hour. But you're the best person, and you're going to have to do something that I know is super uncomfortable because you don't have full information.

You got good judgment. You're the best position, go make the decision, and you know I'll back you no matter what happens.”

Jeff Davis (09:12): And just that last bit, “I’ll back you no matter what. Like, it's going to be hard. It might not be right.” That is classic Melissa Kennedy. That is the kind of thing that we'll probably get into if we talk about psychological safety, that last bit, it's like, “Oh no, it's going to suck. It's going to be hard. It's going to be ambiguous. You might get it wrong, but you're not going to get fired. You're there to give your best advice.”

Antoinette Moriarty (09:36): I think that's exactly the bit that I could feel my, kind of, the hair standing up in the back of my neck because I don't think that's commonly expressed in professional environments. And I think it's often the piece that's missing. And I also think that the earlier piece is quite different in my experience of working with lawyers in the Irish context of having a culture of being able to go and ask for help and support.

And I think that is maybe something that you're speaking about it very casually almost, like, of course they need more time and they need more help. And we're almost, you know, it's an enjoyable kind of conversation that we're having about that. But that's very unusual, Melissa, for lawyers to approach and ask for help as commonly at that, I think.

Jeff Davis (10:21): Maybe not so much in a corporate environment. It could be more unusual in a law firm, or even the feeling that you have the freedom of someone to go to to ask for help. But I'd say, you know, I have a boss still to this day. So, is Melissa, they’re the CEO of the company. And still sometimes I'm like, I don't know what to do here. Can you give me some advice?

Melissa Kennedy (10:40): Yeah, and my experience of being in-house—and I've had very different in-house experiences, a securities regulator, to buy-side, sell-side and very different kinds of companies all around the financial sector—but I had a couple of, in my early days, really good bosses from the point of view of feeling supported.

The head of enforcement, when I headed the prosecution team. We were making decisions that were in the newspaper all the time. And no matter what we did, we were being criticized. And he was super supportive. I was at a bank during a really tough time of regulatory oversight. And my boss also, she was great, she would tell you if you'd gone a little offside, but always privately. When the team needed her support, she was there. And then just picking up on something you said earlier in your earlier podcast, she would—I know she's super busy, young kids, should be driving home—and she'd leave you a little message on your voicemail that would say, “You know what, Melissa? I know you're working. I know you're still there. I know you're dealing with this investigation. Just want to tell you, thanks so much.” And, you know, it was, like, less than a minute.

Antoinette Moriarty (12:01): Wow.

Melissa Kennedy (12:02): [laughs] and it was super supportive.

Antoinette Moriarty (12:04): Really?

Melissa Kennedy (12:04): So, you know, I think, in the corporate environment where there are retained earnings, it's a much different business model. You know, having the real team environment is a little different.

Antoinette Moriarty (12:22): That's clear.

Melissa Kennedy (12:23): Yeah.

Antoinette Moriarty (12:24): That's really interesting. And I think for people who are listening to us, Melissa who might be leading within corporate settings, there is a lot to be learned actually, isn't there from that collegiality, that kind of structure of support rather than simply of accountability and billing.

Melissa Kennedy (12:39): Oh, absolutely. And then I think, you know, my experience being in the GC world, I've been now in-house for 20 plus years is that the GCs community is very collegial, very supportive, because there's many things you can speak about. You're obviously not going to speak about proprietary things, obviously. But there's many things you can talk to other GCs.

And so, you know, you want to help others. It's a very supportive environment. I haven't been in a law firm for years so my information about what it's like to work in a law firm is pretty stale. So, you know, I'm not going to opine on that, but it's very supportive. I remember people saying, “Hey, Melissa, there's a new GC of “X” bank. You should take her out to lunch.” So, I did and we became really good friends, you know that kind of thing.

Antoinette Moriarty (13:30): And you became friends. So, I suppose I'm just thinking of a what setting good conditions can do. And maybe we'll move into that a little bit more, Jeff. Looking at the conditions for a high-functioning team within an organization and creating an environment where it's actually possible for people to become close enough to form friendships. That sounds really special.

Jeff Davis (13:53): Yep.

Antoinette Moriarty (13:53): And yet it's not a magic formula. We know that the root of that is creating safety. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jeff Davis (14:00): Sure, I can. Actually, I'm stealing other people's ideas. There was a study done over four years on this: what leads to a top professional team? Like, what are the top teams out there? And it was a study. There's a book called “The Culture Code”, written by Daniel Coyle, I think his name is.

And they studied for four years, top teams of companies that had a few different qualities. More than a thousand people were in the top 1% of their domain. So, we’re known as being like the market leaders. And there was something about them that were just known to be special. They had that brand associated with them. So, places like—teams that range, like from Bell Labs to, the San Antonio Spurs, that sports team, to Google.

And they looked across them and they found that they distilled it into three different aspects. One, and I know this off by heart now, because I use this at work, is having a sense of safety and belonging in the team was the one thing that they found. Navy SEALs Team Six is another version of this, the military. Two, is having a common sense of purpose.

What you're trying to do. And the third piece of a top performing team is that those team members share vulnerability in order to create strong bonds of trust. They kind of figured out that being open and being vulnerable with one another, actually is the breeding ground of a trusting environment. And those like, you know, some people might go, “Oh, I'm not going to show vulnerability at work.”

It's just—I understand that intuitively, that feels like you're showing weakness. But the thing is, it turns out top-performing teams do that to engineer top performance. They actually create bonds in that environment. And there's lots of science, I'm sure you could tell us about why being open kind of leads to a signalling where someone else kind of finds a connection in that.

Antoinette Moriarty (15:52): Of course. And I think you're right that they're so interconnected, those three pieces, aren't they? But the piece that seems to kind of be at the bedrock of it as a bit of an extension of what Melissa’s talking about. It's those pieces, just making those approaches, you know, because I think what we know from the psychological kind of world is that all attachment forms through approach, retreat, approach, retreat.

And if there is enough safety, we'll continue advancing towards and the retreat from kind of lessen over time. And I'm thinking of all of those people that you manage and lead, across all of those different disciplines and across all of those different cultural environments and countries, and how to create that environment where people can approach you and stay in your kind of sphere of influence long enough to steady, and then find their own agency and kind of patter on along for themselves then. That must be really satisfying as a leader.

Melissa Kennedy (16:50): Yeah, it is. And the key to it is the people. So, having the people, the right leaders, who are closer, obviously, and manage the team’s day to day. That is absolutely key. The first thing as a new leader—in my experience—is surround yourself with the right people.

Jeff Davis (17:14): There's a story like this recipe of safety. And Melissa I think was a natural at this. I don't think that—I'm not sure that you were reading leadership books to kind of bring it to create these environments. I think it was just your nature. there's a story that Melissa tells that kind of speaks to some of the stuff that I learned about creating that environment.

So, the story is about—I can't remember what it was I did, what happened—

Melissa Kennedy (17:42): No.

Jeff Davis (17:43): —but I came into it. So, Melissa started at Teachers’ in 2009. There was something that went wrong. Of course, it was a mistake. Probably wasn't that huge, but of course I feel it as giant because it's a mistake. And I decide, well, I have to go tell my boss.

So, I go see Melissa and say, “Hey, I gotta talk to you about something”. We had this conversation and I say, “I screwed something up.” And then what I've heard her say, and she's told this story publicly before, and what she said, came out of it, speaks to this environment. Well, what was your reaction when that happened?

Melissa Kennedy (18:14): So, my reaction was, “Okay, this is a guy I can count on. I'm a brand-new leader and we didn't know each other before. It's not like our practices had ever... I was a litigator, you were an M&A lawyer, good grief. Never the twain shall meet, but you didn't know me, a brand-new leader. I've been asked by our CEO to be essentially a change agent and build a team and do things differently.

And you came in and made yourself—allowed yourself—to be quite vulnerable in a position where you didn't know what the outcome was going to be. So, when you, you know, confessed to the mistake, which, as I recall, wasn't a big deal, but in any event, I remember thinking to myself, “Okay, here's a guy I can really trust.”

Antoinette Moriarty (19:07): Wow.

Jeff Davis (19:08): Now, just hearing that. So, there's a guy, a professor from Harvard I know writes about this. He talks about the cycle of vulnerability, where the sender—so, in this story, me saying I messed something up, what's really important is how the receiver deals with that. And if the receiver deals with that, with a way of kind of accepting that and maybe even signaling their own story of vulnerability or whatever, how they signal it, that creates this bond, a bond of trust and which kind of just makes sense intuitively.

Although it's weird. To me, it doesn't like... I don't know that I would say, “Oh, yeah, how to get people to trust you just go be vulnerable all over the place”. That sounds like a bad idea, but [laughs] I think that there's truth in that. And also, if that receiver doesn't deal with it that way, if they close out, if they're not willing to engage on that, that will create probably psychological unsafety.

Melissa Kennedy (20:02): Or worse, use it against you.

Jeff Davis (20:05): Yeah.

Melissa Kennedy (20:06): Like, you know, you've seen that happen.

Jeff Davis (20:08): A world of distrust.

Melissa Kennedy (20:09): Yeah, absolutely that could be, really. So, I identified, because of that and other things, that Jeff would be, you know, my key lieutenant in creating the team there, and he was.

Antoinette Moriarty (20:25): Well, I'm delighted to hear about it, because I'm just thinking of people listening to us who might be working really hard and might be listening now because it's, you know, you Melissa on this pod. And people will recognize your name, and your stature, and your reputation within the legal community. And I think there are people going to hear this and really take stock of the value actually of doing the counterintuitive piece. You know, it's that graciousness actually isn't under fire.

Melissa Kennedy (20:54): Thank you.

Antoinette Moriarty (20:56): It's really, it’s a lovely quality. So, Melissa, can we ask on behalf of all of the people who've tuned in because of your role and the position that you hold in the legal community and your reputation as a leader, can we ask a little bit, can we go a little bit behind the curtain of Melissa Kennedy?

Melissa Kennedy (21:14): Of course.

Antoinette Moriarty (21:14): Great. So, one of the things I think that would be of real interest to our listeners today, Jeff, is to hear how you create the conditions for yourself, Melissa, to be able to be well-resourced when you're leading other people.

Melissa Kennedy (21:29): So, I think, and I'll tell the back story around it, but I have learned that it’s hard for lawyers. And I think it's hard for women, period. But it's hard for lawyers to ask for help and lean on people. And there was a point in time when I absolutely had to, so I'll tell you the story.

So, I was approached to become General Counsel at Teachers’, I was in a very interesting position at a bank, but this was this was the next big step in my career to go from, you know, a VP to General Counsel reporting to the CEO that that was a huge step in the career.

So, on Friday I get the letter from Teachers’ saying that I've got the position, I make an arrangement to meet with the headhunter on the Monday to sort out a few things. And my husband and I go out to celebrate on Friday, and no one knew about this role. I didn't want to jinx it.

So, the only person who knew I was in the hunt for this big new role at Teachers’ was my husband. And on Sunday at our tennis lesson, our weekly tennis lesson, he died on the tennis court of a massive heart attack. He was 51. I was in my early 40s. And so, my world completely turned around.

The kids are in university, they're out of town. I have to bring them back in, I have to make some horrible phone calls. But I spoke to my boss-to-be at Teachers’, I told him what happened. He said, “Okay, search is off for a month. We'll get back to you. Do what you need to do”.

I made some phone calls to... there's five of us from law school. We're very, very close. We've gone through just about everything, hadn’t gone through this before. So, within two hours, they dropped everything. Two were managing partners at the time, one was a vice chair at a regulatory agency. So, big careers on themselves. And over the next two weeks, they reorganized themselves, rescheduled hearings, etc. to make sure that somebody was with me, at all times.

So, between that and then I did decide to join Teachers’. That was a big decision. And I had lots of mentors, you know, telling me to stay put. I did decide, but the people, both the CEO at the time, Jim Leech, was super supportive. People like Jeff, who I was vulnerable with, I think I had a panic attack at one point when I saw an ambulance, I think, or something.

Jeff Davis (24:22): We were in Montréal airport. I remember that.

Melissa Kennedy (24:24): There we go. And so, but just being—I had to rely on people because, you know, I actually was in a state of shock for many months. And so, I had to rely on people, so just knowing that—and I hitherto was like all other people, was reluctant to ask for help because of course, you know, I should be able to do everything, but I actually needed help.

Antoinette Moriarty (24:53): Yeah.

Melissa Kennedy (24:55): Yeah. So, that's sort of the backstory behind it and why it's so important to me to support my team because there's always something going on. There's always something: kids, parents, spouse, work, health... there's always there's always ups and downs.

Antoinette Moriarty (25:14): So, Melissa, I mean, firstly, it's just so generous of you to share at that level of, you know, we asked to peek behind the curtain, and I think you ripped it down.

Melissa Kennedy (25:24): [laughs] Yes, pretty much!

Antoinette Moriarty (25:25): Yeah. And I think you tell it, and I'm sure it's some time ago, but you tell it to immediately and it's so moving actually to think of something so terribly sad happening to you at the height of both yours and your husband's lives and so much potential stretching out ahead for both of you as a couple and as a family.

It's just a life changing moment in time. And to hear that your people, your key people came from all corners and from very busy schedules and formed a circle around you that enabled you to actually recalibrate and make that bold and brave decision to continue with something you'd started that only your husband had known about—

Melissa Kennedy (26:11): Right.

Antoinette Moriarty (26:11): That you were able to reach that. And I'm imagining for our family that show of strength and that show of clarity of mind, even at that moment, must have been incredibly stabilizing.

Melissa Kennedy (26:24): Yeah, it was. At the end of the day, they're successfully launched and married, and all that kind of good stuff. So, yeah, that was certainly another mental stress was worrying about, you know, how the kids would be.

Jeff Davis (26:39): I remember the experience of that from being at Teachers’ and you had joined. I remember Jim coming to me, probably after he'd spoken to you and saying that that had happened. And I had the first reaction that she should take care of herself, and I wouldn't be moving in jobs right now. Thank goodness you did.

Now that there's a lot of distance from it, I think that part also, it triggered in me at least, and I think a lot of others there, the desire to help, right? With someone going through that situation, you're naturally all of a sudden like, new boss is coming in. You're like, well, let's figure out the new boss.

That didn't happen. That wasn't the narrative. It was like, we need to help this person. And I don't know if you remember, but the first period when you were there, like I remember being in these meetings in your office, you and me, and I was like, okay, we're going to talk about credit default swaps now. We're going to talk about like these different things that were different from the environment that you were in.

And that's kind of how we started to get to know one another is in this environment that felt like not you were my boss, but I was there to try to help because I just kind of had this sense like, things have to be hard. And I'm sure that everybody around you at Teachers’ were kind of thinking that way.

Melissa Kennedy (27:57): Yes.

Jeff Davis (27:58): It's weird, though, that lawyers find so hard to ask for help when that's actually the very thing that we want to do is to help other people.

Melissa Kennedy (28:08): That’s an insightful comment.

Antoinette Moriarty (28:10): Nice. Yes, I was just thinking that what a nice connecting of the different traits, you know, and the kind of compulsion to support others that's very often there when you work with lawyers clinically, it's like Karpman’s drama triangle, where your average lawyer sits on the point of the triangle as rescuer.

Then there are victims and persecutors on that triangle as well. Very often, of course, we can experience clients as persecutors at certain points, and we can feel victimized by them and Karpman would say, once you're on that triangle, you’ll rotate through all of those roles. That's the bit that's really scary, I think, from that kind of internal drive to rescue is that, you know, at some other part, or place, or relationship in one's life, you might also then become the victim of something, like the overworking, for example, or the drive, the demand is too much.

And in order, in that very human way that we have, in order to kind of recalibrate, we might even move into persecuting. So, you know, we have to come off it, you know, that’s all the wisdom psychology would tell us. The only way to win is not to play. Now, you say that out loud to a room full of lawyers, and it's like someone has taken away Christmas. Because to play is kind of part of your psyche, isn't it? To play dynamically, to kind of get in there to the mess of a very complex situation and think about the adversary, think about who's going to come out on top, think about the potential to win.

And I think that kind of, you know, going repeatedly into those complex, unconscious dynamics, it has an impact on mental health and well-being.

Jeff Davis (29:59): Yeah, I think so, I think that's part of the nature of the profession, and it probably draws people to it, to be honest. We talked about this a little bit in the first episode, the problem being dynamic, like, I don't know about you, Melissa, but I'm drawn to the messy, you know, I'm drawn to the kind of risky things because those are... that makes life interesting.

I wouldn't necessarily call myself as absolutely risk-averse. I'd say that I like to understand risk and then be able to kind of try to figure out ways to manage it and kind of make sure that at our organization we're getting paid for it. But I think you're right, but there can be a price to pay if you are kind of putting too much of that on yourself and you're spending all your time just ruminating over a problem.

Antoinette Moriarty (30:44): So, it's interesting that you're bringing up that piece about the cost, Jeff. And I know that Brené Brown, who of course, we all know is as one of the first big commentators on the value of vulnerability, has said that, you know, when people are digging deep, you're taking soil from somewhere else. And it really stopped me in my tracks.

And I, you know, I've been around a lot of mental health podcasts and language and all the rest of it. But there's something about how she framed that, you know, and I'm thinking back to what Melissa said almost in passing earlier about it's hard for women. And then you said, “It's hard for women, period”. Brené Brown really, you know, sometimes uses language that kind of arrests women in our spot because she just gets into it, you know.

And I think a lot of professional women do dig deep, but I think there is also then both the shame, potentially, and the regret and the guilt of, where am I taking the soil from? Who isn't getting looked after, attended to, thought about, held in mind while I'm sitting at my desk, while I'm ruminating? And, I don't know, is there something you can offer women who might be listening around that kind of baggage we carry, that guilt piece?

Melissa Kennedy (32:01): Yeah, I think that's right, Antoinette. Yeah. It's just been my observation with women, in particular, not just women lawyers, but women across the board. They're very, very reluctant to ask for help. I think if you recognize that, you offer a hand. It is what I've done when I've seen that, you know, I think I can help here.

It’s kind of inbred in us. I don't know what it is. I haven't read or studied enough to offer any insight into that, but I've just certainly observed it for women in particular, asking for help. A concrete example is networking. I think, it's been my observation that men are far better at networking. I hate that word; it sounds very contrived and bad. But you know, just getting together with people and using them. “Hey, I'm interested in a job at ‘X’”. In my observation, men will reach out to other people and say, “I'm interested in a job at Teachers’, do you think Melissa would talk to me about what it was like to work there? Give me an insights into Jeff?” You know, whereas women don't do that.

I remember having lunch with a woman who was on my prosecution team when I was at the OSC, and I said, “Hey, what's next for you?” And she said, “Well, I was actually interested in this job. I didn't get it. They hired somebody”. I said, “Why don't you tell me? Because I think I have influence there.” And it's just, we have the sense that it's not right. We got to do it on our own. And leveraging those connections is the wrong thing to do. But that's just a concrete example, I see men way better at that. And, and women are very reluctant. They think they're jumping the queue or not playing the appropriate game, and that's not actually right.

Antoinette Moriarty (34:13): That's not actually right. And I'm thinking of the value, I think that's so helpful actually, and relieving for women who might be listening, who try and do it all on their own. But I'm thinking, Jeff, of the value of the male allies around women who might also, alongside strong women who have enough capacity to lend a hand as Melissa said, there's a lot of learning that could be shared from our male allies in the workplace.

Melissa Kennedy (34:40): Absolutely. If I can just jump in, sorry to interrupt, but if I can just jump in, 100%. I've been in a lot of women groups, but, you know, recently, the last few years, I had a really tough problem. And one of my advisors, mentors if you will, was a man. And I’ve been speaking to my female friends and, you know, getting the typical mama bear kind of, you know, reactions from good support systems.

But the guy was the best. He gave me great leadership advice. You know, listen, this is how you're presenting, you need to do this. And I was just so—I thought, wow, I don't think a woman would have given me that advice. At least not my women. And I was so grateful that I got the male perspective, a man's perspective on it. It was really super helpful.

Antoinette Moriarty (35:34): Yeah, it sounds like it was illuminating. There was something, you know, that male psyche can point to. And, Jeff, you know, I'm imagining that you have lots of female colleagues on your teams and, you know, the value of having an empathic, emotionally well-resourced male leader is fantastic for everybody, men and women. Right?

Jeff Davis (35:57): Well, you'd have to ask them that question. And what I would say is that my career, I worked at a law firm that was, when I started there, there were more women than men, I think at the time including on the female partner side, it was a pretty progressive firm. And my mentors there were women.

And then it turns out, then I went and got different jobs, and I had female leaders, kind of mentoring me. I can draw a long line, a list, of mentors that I had that were women that might have led to more of that type of nature. My team now, that team that I talked about in the first podcast, they're, you know, no matter how you slice it, there's a majority of women in the in the profession.

There's lots of reasons for that. But on my senior leadership team is also majority women and I'd say over time, you do get to identify some of the things that Melissa's talking about, that it's like, why wouldn't you just ask for help? And quite frankly, when I hear Melissa saying that, I think in my job, I get a lot of help.

In fact, I think that's what it generally is. And then me kind of going, like, what about this idea and what about that? And what about doing this thing? Like, often it is a reaction or poking and prodding to a bunch of people who are helping me come up with a solution to some big, broad kind of strategy issue or whatever.

Antoinette Moriarty (37:20): So, kind of sharing it out to the group and letting the group take care of it with, you know, that lovely example you gave earlier. All the research points to the more difference you have in the group, whether it's gender, culture, you know, role in the organization, professional starting point, and you have all of that, of course, at Sun Life and more.

And that leads to rich professional outputs for everybody, for clients, you know, not least, so I suppose it's a bit about, you know, there's something coming through very strongly in what you're both saying about creating the conditions for people to be themselves very simply and not necessarily all the same, and allowing that kind of creative juice to flow in a way that’s going to lead to a really good outcome for everybody.

Jeff Davis (38:08): Like from a leadership perspective, a lot of what I do, I’d bet the same thing with you, you're relying on the help of other people for sure—

Melissa Kennedy (38:15): Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Davis (38:16): —but think about it from the talent perspective. Who wants to work for a leader that's doing it all on their own? On the big things? Like, who wants that?

Like, I don't think that draws talent. But listen, I think that we're going to go to a break now in the session. This has been a really rich conversation. Melissa, I look forward to coming back to this podcast and talking with you a little bit more. And Antoinette, it's been, both, insightful, powerful and moving, quite frankly, on the issues that we're talking about today. in this podcast. So, thank you. And we'll be back.

Melissa Kennedy (38:48): Thank you.

Antoinette Moriarty (38:49): Thank you.

Jeff Davis (00:05): So, welcome back to the second part of the second episode of this podcast for the IBA Wellbeing Professional Commission. I'm Jeff Davis, I'm joined by Melissa Kennedy, and Antoinette Moriarty, and we're going to talk a little bit more on this session that's on the highs and lows of being a lawyer.

I think there's one thing that we should talk a little bit about, it’s words that have come up in my career, I hear other people say it, I've certainly felt this thing, but I don't know what this thing is. And I'd love, Antoinette, for you to give us a little bit of your sense of it is this idea of something called the “imposter syndrome”. And maybe a little bit on what that actually is, why lawyers feel it, and the negatives about that, or maybe even there's positives to it. Could you give us a little bit of a kind of background on that?

Antoinette Moriarty (00:51): Of course. Yeah. And you're right, it is used widely and very often just negatively. So, I think it's really interesting that you're interested in unpacking it a little bit. So, let's do that. So, what it is of course we have all have some sense of this don't we? It's this idea that we can project capacity, responsibility, assertiveness, confidence, good judgement, externally to clients and to colleagues and internally at the same time, we can be in touch with another part of ourselves, which also exists and is real.

And it's different for everybody depending on the context. But it could be, “I don't have a right to have a view on this because I'm a woman”, for example, that could be part of one's imposter syndrome, or “I don't get to say this to this client because actually, this isn't my lived experience”. So, I'm in touch with some real kind of unconscious vulnerability around being this assertive, well-thought through professional.

Or it could be I'm too junior in this room and I'm speaking up in front of colleagues that are really experienced, and therefore I don't get to project this brilliant part of myself that's really well-researched, really well-briefed, knows all the facts, because there's another part of me that's less than and I'm alive to that part as I sit in front of you, telling you how to manage your very complex problem.

And so, it's a bit more complex than we often hear about. It's about two things being true, potentially at the same time, which is not good news for our brains. We like one thing to be true at one time, and that's when we can really be in our stride and what we call our “flow” is when we're just in touch with that singularity of confidence, singularity of purpose, whatever it might be.

But having two stories running at the same time is very human. So, if you think about it, the flow state is quite elusive. That's why there's so much being written about why people are teaching really applied techniques like mindfulness to allow us to enter into it. For the most part, we're in touch with two, at least, realities at all times.

So, if one of those realities is telling you that you're less than, even if partly that's true, it's very difficult to allow the other part, which is also true, that you're also competent, skillful, have a right to be there, have been invited to that space, are offering something that's unique to your perspective. That part can get a little bit sidelined and without real training, mental training, real psychological safety around us, people who might see it and say, you know, let me step in and offer something to what Antoinette is saying. Without those kinds of conditions, we can allow the voice that's telling us we’re lesser to win.

Jeff Davis (03:57): That's a really helpful explanation, and I'm not sure I've understood the concept as well as I feel like I do now. I'm glad this is recorded so I can go back and listen to that, and maybe even play it for some other people. I don't know, Melissa, if you had a reaction. One thing that I would say, my experience of what you just described is, I relate that to this. The only way to resolve that problem, I don't feel badly about the fact that I'm lesser than what someone might be perceiving about me right now, and in fact that I say to myself, “Oh no, they might be perceiving me as being perfect, wonderful, super successful, all those things”.

And I might know about some inner flaws that I have, but I still am successful or good, it's just that I'm not perfect and wonderful and everything to everybody. And so, that's the hack in a way of kind of accepting that I'm really good, I'm awesome, I like how I do my role or my job or whatever, and yeah, I make mistakes. I make typos in emails, all that kind of stuff.

Antoinette Moriarty (04:58): And even maybe, alongside knowing that I'm referring back to something we said in our earlier Part 1 of this podcast, where you both spoke about how you relate better or more genuinely or at a depth to people who actually can reveal the kind of hidden track, if you like. And it's actually a strength to be able to tune into the two frequencies, because what it really allows for is being able to actually make friends with that other frequency, enough to be able to let people see a little bit of it from time to time where it's appropriate and where it's helpful both to ourselves and in terms of in service to the relationship with the client or our colleague.

Jeff Davis (05:46): You know, it's interesting that you call it a strength, because I've always thought of this idea of showing vulnerability as being brave. I do relate to the Brené Brown definitions around that stuff. I think that is the badass that someone who can actually be confident and flawed at the same time, that's my definition, and that's what would drive me to even do that, because I want to be a brave version of myself, and I can't be a brave version of myself if I'm trying to be a perfect version of myself.

That's my kind of own motto around that type of stuff. So, I appreciate the way that you're describing it and showing that hidden track. I'd also say it resonates with me in terms of my relationship with you, Melissa, in terms of the way that we first met each other, frankly, the tracks had to get all out there very quickly.

We didn't really have choices around that. We didn't have the kind of the soft introduction, “How do you do?” and “How do you do?” We were thrown into some life chaos, we were thrown into some work chaos, there was a lot of things that were going on at that time.

Melissa Kennedy (06:48): Yeah, I was a bit of a mess. [laughs]

Jeff Davis (06:52): And I was having to deal in an environment that I didn't know how to deal with.

Melissa Kennedy (06:55): Yeah, but just on the imposter syndrome aspect, I've never really thought it such a bad thing. And I guess, you know, I was reassured early in my career, like, I think lots of people have it, it's certainly not just lawyers. I was on the radio when I was driving in, this morning. Sarah McLachlan was being interviewed and talked about having imposter syndrome, and she's one of Canada's lauded singer-songwriters.

And so, I remember early in my practice, it was first or second year, and I was, you know, I was a junior for a very successful lawyer in our firm who became treasurer of the Law Society, you know, became, you know, a cabinet minister, like a super, super, super successful person. And he was talking, it was at the end of the day, we'd been in court, finished that day of trial, talking to his EAs, doing 1,001 things.

And then, you know, we got back to the parking lot, shut the door, and he looked at me. He said, “Well, fooled them for another day!” And I remember looking at him and saying, “What?! You don't feel like—like I know I feel like that, but I'm supposed to feel like that, because I'm you know, baby lawyer—but you don't feel like that?!”

And it was just knowing that. Oh yeah, he did with all of his success. I think it's, for me, it's always been linked to fear of failure. And I remember hearing an entrepreneur, I forgot who it was, years ago talk about what drove him to his success in creating new companies and new widgets, and what have you, was a fear of failure.

Thinking yeah, exactly. If you're going to fail, you're going to lose that trial unless you know everything. So, I gotta know all the facts on my side, all the other side's facts. And that keeps me up to 4 a.m. to learn all that. So, knowing that everybody, lots of people have imposter syndrome, it's not just to lawyers either.

I make a joke out of it. You know, I have a practice niche of being in charge of things I know nothing about. which, you know, kind of has been true. I need experts like Jeff. But imposter syndrome, I think can be getting recognized. Lots of people have it. Arguably almost all of us, to some extent. And it's okay. It can help drive, you know, good outcomes is kind of the way I look at it. It's not something I need to “deal” with.

Jeff Davis (09:27): But it's interesting because part of the question I think it was asking too is like, are the benefits and negatives too it? Like there's probably... there's a point at which that is driving probably behaviour that is damaging to yourself, but there's probably times that it doesn't. And some people might never have that damaging behaviour and might not, I don't know. I'm now starting to play the role of psychotherapist in front of a psychotherapist, which makes me feel like I have imposter syndrome. [laughs]

Melissa Kennedy (09:58): Why stop now? [laughs]

Antoinette Moriarty (09:59): “Why stop now?” [laughs]

I think you've summed it up beautifully, actually, because you don't need to be. I mean, and I think this is the beauty of this. You don't need to be a psychotherapist as we know, to know a lot about ourselves. And it's not a science. You know, psychotherapy is a way of being in relationship with people.

We don't offer diagnoses. We don't offer erudite advice. We drop into, “Mhm. Mhm.” a lot. And the reason for that is you are the architect of your own internal life. I can't recreate that for you. I can, if I'm really lucky, be alongside you as you redesign yourself in support of a healthier life and support of a healthier relationship with yourself as a starting point to all other relationships and all other activity.

And that's an incredible privilege, and that's enough, actually. We don't need to start planting ideas about how that might be bettered. So, I think it's important I say that because I think, you know, lots of you listening to this will be doing something very similar to what happens with lawyers, which is projecting the expertise into somebody else for making something better or more wonderful, and actually just sitting with ourselves and being able to sit with ourselves in the mess is the strongest act of self-determination we’ll ever engage with.

Jeff Davis (11:39): I think that's well-said, and maybe that's where we should pivot in this podcast and talk a little bit about maybe a sum up of what we've learned in this podcast, what this series is about, I mean, really it was incredibly insightful for me, Antoinette, and I don't know about you, I think that it's been a pleasure to be on a session with you, Melissa.

You're a close friend of mine. I just have fun. I could do this podcast for hours. I think that's becoming clear. But exploring these ideas about mental health in the legal profession, you know this, this has been a passion of mine for years. I think that there is something about lawyers, and I think that we should talk about it in order to help improve the lifestyles of lawyers.

I think some of the stories that you've told here today help destigmatize some of those stories, and maybe encourage somebody listening to kind of take their own challenges a little more serious, maybe focus on themselves. And as Antoinette uses the phrase, start to build even their own scaffolding. Sure, going to a therapist can be a good way to do that, but it doesn't need to be the only way you can start to build your own ways of taking care of yourself and learning how to actually manage your own discomfort in the environment that you're working.

Melissa Kennedy (13:00): Yeah, I really commend you and applaud you for being on this journey and bringing it to light. It is really important. You know, when I first started practice many moons ago. But you didn't even talk about your personal life... at work, let alone mental health issues. I think one of the benefits, if I can phrase it like that, to come out of COVID is the fact that we have been talking about mental health challenges of yourself or somebody close around you which can have, you know, huge effect on one's wellbeing. And so, you know, making this very podcast is an example of talking about and it's okay, you know, it's a tough time and there's always something going on in somebody's life. So, I think this has been an important podcast. So, thank you. Thank you, Antoinette.

Jeff Davis (13:57): Thank you. Antoinette, do you have any final words you want to share?

Antoinette Moriarty (14:00): Again, it is that sense of being in the company of people who have done tremendous work, both internally and out in the world. And I think that is something that lawyers often don't fully appreciate that you bring when you walk into a room. So, when you show up, you bring such incredible technical know-how, commitment, drive, passion, capacity to work hard, but also this kind of desire to get to know and do whatever is going to be in furtherance of your goals, including laterally.

I think particularly over the last couple of years, getting to know yourselves and your clients’ internal worlds was a little bit more. And so, thank you both for being as open as you have been, and for modelling something that I think a lot of our listeners will want to have a taste of as they go out into the rest of their day.

Jeff Davis (15:00): Thanks very much to both Antoinette and Melissa for joining me. This has been a great series and I really appreciate the topics that we went into. Thank you.

Melissa Kennedy (15:09): Thank you.